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25 years later, what really went down in Waco?

Good Evening Gentlemen (and ladies if it applies) I was 23 years old and really had zero clue about the ways of the world and the dark side of our government. I'm not saying I don't remember it happening, but I don't think I realize how people's rights/beliefs were being trampled. Before I go and read the varying stories of what really took place, what are the feelings here with you all? If I have reason to believe strangers, I rather it be from a bunch that I have some common ground with.
Who was right? Who was wrong? What was the two sides of the issue people died over?
Thanks all!
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  • I dislike Koresh, but his followers did nothing wrong. They were murdered by Janette Reno who was known even then as a Corrupt Prosecutor who tampered with Evidence and would do ANYTHING to get her way.

    Many have come forward stating that she stole Drugs from Evidence or never logged Evidence in. She would use coke to get herself laid, and sell drugs and info/favors to whomever could pay.

    Clinton wanted a distraction from the Plethora of Corruptions HE was involved in. This helped take the focus off of him....temporarily.
  • I will be watching the 2 hour special on it, but already know they will make Koresh seem like a religious nut job. Yeah, women and children, it was handled all wrong. Shot/burned to death? Come on! I believed the standoff to be against a militia, I also subscribe to the belief that a militia has the right to exist. Again, I haven't studied any of this really at all...YET.
  • Koresesh's only bad side was stockpiling explosives and possible class 3 stuff.

    The government blew the whole thing out of proportion to get a news headline to support gun control.

    A local deputy and team could have went out there with a search warrant and served a non violent search warrant and probably got some resistance but could have controlled it.

    The Feds just wanted news bites. And they got them
  • Were any Explosives actually used or recovered? I never heard about anything illegal (those used for stump removal which were 100% legal was all that he had.)

    The Excuse for the Raid was "Fully Automatic Machinegun Fire" that neighbors heard. In fact, there was NO full auto ever claimed. They had a firing range where a dozen ppl would all shoot at the same time. Hearing 12 AKs all firing simultaneously may "sound" like "full-auto," but it ISN'T. The Claims were even that "perhaps" he had a "camming system" that toggled back and forth to activate the trigger repeatedly.

    The Irony, is that he could have easily gotten an FFL Class 7/ SOT 02 at that time with minimal paperwork and little hassle. So this claim is laughable on its very surface. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
  • It is no doubt David Koresh was a pedophile and nut job, but there were a lot of innocent people there. ATF got its ass handed to it during the 1st encounter. I have to say, I really don't understand how "high dollar" religions are allowed to flourish (don't think Scientology is a clean/nice house of worship) and grittier ones are treated as cults. The reasons they SHOULD HAVE been taken out had no bearing here. All I can say is I'm NOT clear cut on the side of the law on this one.
    Well, I know hella more about Waco and what went down now...
  • edited January 6
    Did they tell about the FBI trying to get the Sheriff and TX Rangers to lie and make crap up about Koresh? That the Sheriff had nothing bad to say about the Davidians? Only that "they marry kinda young and come to town telling ppl about their Church sometimes. They don't hurt nobody though. Ppl don't mind them much."

    And that any Follower could leave anytime that they wanted. They had been investigated for child abuse, and cleared. The TX Rangers were FURIOUS at the ATF and FBI and the crap that THEY pulled. The ATF/FBI ordered Rangers to leave since they could act as Objective Observers and inform the Public what REALLY happened. Including ACCURATE timelines.

    The FBI/ATF murdered those poor ppl. If they wanted Koresh, fine. If they wanted to search, Koresh let the Sheriff in to search and interview whenever he wanted. They respected Local LEOs, just not the Feds...

    It's odd how they claim that Koresh was a Pedo, given that his early relationship was with an elderly woman in her 60s (Lois Roden.) But after she died, he DID want "unsoiled temples" to give him children. The question is, "how many wives did he have?" 1, 2, more? I don't recall any 1st hand testimony about THAT aspect, just the filth that the ATF/FBI pumped out to make him into a Monster. Straight out of Goebbel's playbook. :(

  • The whole thing was really about government ASSET FORFEITURE , giving the government a reason to NOT DISBAND THE BATF , and setting the stage for the 1994 GUN CONTROL ACT.

    As far as I know there were no illegal explosives there, the government used the fact that Koresh used to buy up lots of demilled hand grenades as their excuse of him having HAND GRENADES, when in fact they were used as desk ornaments, you know the kind with a little wooden base saying "Complaint Department, Take a Number" . That is what they did with them and the government knew that as Koresh and his group worked the gun show circuit selling them and other LEGAL items. But when a delivery driver dropped one of the boxes that was full of INERT HAND GRENADES and it broke open the government jumped all over that.

    The Davidians also ran a legal custom repair shop where they worked on Corvettes and other such cars, the ATF even mentioned this at the time just after the failed raid and how they were going to seize all of the cars to pay for the operation. This was at a time when ATF was under a lot of pressure to be merged with the FBI and and be done away with as it's own government agency because of the many crimes that had come to light about how they had been doing business over the years including targeting individuals for false crimes with planted evidence in order to seize their properties because Asset Forfeiture made up a large part of ATF budget and bonuses were being handed out to agents who could rake in the cash.
    All in all a very corrupt band of thieves who did the dirty work for the Clintons, therefore they had to prove just how invaluable they were to the administration.

    And as a result of the raid we got the 1994 GUN CONTROL ACT.

    It was purely political and NOT done to "Save the children"..... and who in the hell torches women and children in order to save them ?!
    Oh that's right ...... THE GOVERNMENT !!!

  • edited January 6
    Just a taste into how dirty they really are........

    ATF fictional sting operations


    ATF Ran Illegal Mixed-Money Slush Fund For Years With Zero Oversight, Auditing, Or Punishment

    from the no-one's-more-above-the-law-then-law-enforcement dept

    The ATF isn't restrained by oversight. It's hardly restrained at all. It's made a business of fake stash house sting operations, where downtrodden suckers looking for cash are persuaded to rob a ficitonal stash house of its fictional drugs. The problem is the government then bases its charges on the amount of nonexistent drugs sting victims were told the fake stash house contained. In no sting operation was the "amount" of drugs lower than 5 kilograms -- the amount needed to trigger a 20-year minimum sentence.

    Why is the ATF involved? Because every sting operation involves fictional armed guards, necessitating the use of illegally-obtained weapons by sting victims. Bang. More charges with lengthy minimum sentences.

    When not pushing people into fake robberies, the ATF regulates alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. (Also explosives, but it makes the well-known acronym more than a bit clumsy.) To facilitate maximum price gouging by state governments, the ATF tries to break up untaxed cigarette sales.

    It's this simple work that has propelled an accountability-free explosion in the ATF, most of it traced back to a single office in Bristol, Virginia, fronted by a quasi-legitimate tobacco distributor. From there, an appalling amount of illegal activity was participated in by ATF agents and officials.

    Matt Apuzzo has put together an amazing story for the New York Times, sourced from interviews and public records requests -- one that will cause your jaw to drop lower the further you scroll down the page. As Apuzzo puts it, the operation began as a way to bust black-market cigarette sales. It ended up as something much more sinister: an ATF slush fund that mixed public and private money with zero oversight or statutory authority. If any agent needed anything -- from vending machines with cameras in them to credit cards for unquestioned expenses -- they went to Bristol. It was done in the government's name, but plenty of agents personally profited from the operation.

    The spending was not limited to investigative expenses. Two informants made $6 million each. One agent steered hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate, electronics and money to his church and his children’s sports teams, records show.

    Federal law prohibits mixing government and private money. The A.T.F. now acknowledges it can point to no legal justification for the scheme. But far from reining in the spending, records show that supervisors at headquarters encouraged it by steering agents from around the country to Bristol.

    As the money mixed, the spending increased. ATF officials in Washington sent agents to Bristol to obtain equipment, supplies, and spending money in order to bypass red tape. So many vehicles were requisitioned through Bristol the office had to set up its own leasing company. Hotel bills and gas alone ran nearly $25,000 a month. And yet, the DOJ never looked into the ATF operation or its incredible amount of spending. With public and private funds overlapping, it would have been a nightmare to audit. How much of a nightmare, no one knows… because no one ever tried. Unbelievably, the "accounting" for the ATF's oversight-less, mixed cash operation was left to a single bookkeeper using Quickbooks on her own computer.

    As part of the sting, two informants helped pad the ATF's secret account by purchasing cigarettes directly from US Tobacco at $3 a carton and selling them back to the ATF for $17 a carton. Rather than this being a losing proposition for the ATF, the difference in prices allowed the ATF to dump another half-million into its secret Bristol account.

    The ATF office was basically housing gangsters with hearts of ill-gotten gold at this point.

    [ATF agent Thomas] Lesnak said he set the prices, allowing his informants “customary and reasonable” profits. Mr. Carpenter and Mr. Small were paid $6 million apiece in less than two years, according to court documents. Such huge sums would normally require special approval. But since the money came from the secret account, the A.T.F. officially paid them nothing.

    Those around Mr. Lesnak benefited, too. The old tobacco warehouse — a $410,000 repurposed candy factory — was given to his church, property records show. A half-million dollars from the secret account was donated to local law enforcement agencies. Thousands more went to Mr. Lesnak’s children’s school. Mr. Lesnak handed out Blu-ray players and Xboxes to his son’s baseball teammates, one player recalled. The donations, Mr. Small said, were made at Mr. Lesnak’s insistence.

    To keep his warehouse workers happy, records show, Mr. Lesnak handed out envelopes of cash — $500 to $700 a month, tax free. On an office casino trip, Ms. Davis testified, he provided money for gambling. Employees were given DVD players, televisions or freezers that arrived in the warehouse, records show.

    The ATF's operation finally ran into trouble when US Tobacco began taking an interest in purchases tied to the agency. Concerned it was being used to facilitate something resembling a criminal operation (but run by law enforcement personnel), US Tobacco began looking into activities at its Bristol warehouse. This led to one of the greatest moments of combined irony and schadenfreude in human existence.

    The operation ran until Stuart Thompson, a bookish Manhattan native, took over as chief financial officer at U.S. Tobacco. He repeatedly pressed the warehouse manager to explain the unusual supply of Palermos. No market existed for that many cigarettes, he said.

    On March 8, 2013, the warehouse manager called Mr. Thompson. “He started telling me that A.T.F. was doing operations in our warehouse,” Mr. Thompson recalled.

    Company lawyers descended on the warehouse, seizing everything. A tobacco company had just raided the A.T.F.

    Despite all of this, no one involved has been prosecuted. The DOJ still hasn't attempted to audit the funds the ATF worked with, even while declaring the operation to be highly problematic. Everyone involved walked away unscathed. Even Agent Lesnak, who spearheaded the operation and set up the mixed-money slush fund, never received so much as an oral reprimand. I suppose the DOJ felt the 100 or so arrests resulting from the operation outweighed the illegal activity that went on for years under its nose.

    The whole story is worth reading. It shows the ATF has the DEA's mentality: nothing matters but the job. Any and all illegal operations are forgiven in advance (and often in arrears) because doing the government's version of God' work involves breaking laws like omelet eggs and keeping oversight as far away as possible from day-to-day activities.
  • No sugar coating that one!
  • Government sanctioned murder is all it was.
  • Man Pastor M, I should have just skipped the 2 hour show and read your cliff notes! There were some good points that if they wanted to arrest Koresh, there was no shortage of time of him being out and about in the adjacent towns/out in public. Everything that doesn't make sense is b/c there are a lot of crap fabrication stories floating to the surface. How many agenda pushes hidden in some sort of white flag since then....911? Sandy Hook? Boston Bombing? Pulse night club? Aurora Theatre? Who knows?
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